Thursday, May 22, 2008

Challenge matches

So Eddie Hill is starting to beat down everyone in his path. We need some big guns to face him on the ladder and send him down a few rungs or me may have to rename the ladder after him.

Interesting result with Curren taking out OC BL in three. Oakridge looking more impressive now, huh?

I guess I have to come up with something to entertain you all when we have an off week. Any mixed doubles smack talk????????????

Mixed actually has about double the players than last year from what I saw initially and some big names are playing on many teams out there.

I liked the idea of the some blog tourneys to pass the time after playoffs because I don't know about you but the Combo tourney........zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. I say we create our own event around that time.


  1. Oh and here is an update on the 4.0 division.

    Qualifying Tournament – In the QT there will a total of 6 teams (divided into 2 round robin flights of 3 teams each). The teams that qualify are the four teams that finish 2nd in their respective flights plus the two 3rd place teams with the best record (determined by TennisLink standings). If the fall league winner finishes among these six teams, then the 3rd place team with the next best record will qualify for the QT.

    City Championships – The 4.0 City Championships will involve 6 teams (divided into 2 round robin flights of 3 teams each). The 6 teams are the four teams that finished 1st in their respective flights, the winner of the fall league from the prior year, as well as the wildcard (QT winner). There will be two wildcard teams from the QT competing in the City Championships if the fall league winner finishes 1st in their spring flight.

  2. since you all have a lot of time on your hands I am giving you late night guys and early morning bloggers homework. If the playoffs started today what would the QT and DCC look like and what would the seedings be based on the email. I would look it up but I gotta run now.

  3. I am not on the ladder due to being in Arkansas, but I'll challenege Eddie for match either on the evening of June 6th or morning June 7th if available.
    Would be a 4.5 versus 4.0 and I am known to lose to 4.0 players, **couch** Keith **cough**

    We all enjoy USTA league play and we appreciate your administrative efforts. However, there are some obvious areas where improvements are needed. Improvements in the following areas will enhance player enjoyment and league fairness.

    1) A lot of teams are only playing 7 matches this year. That is too few. If flights are set up more effectively, all teams can play more matches. For example, level 4.0 teams would play more matches if we had 5 flights and played a double round robin.

    2) The distribution of teams to flights often results in a playing field that is not level. In level 3.5 for example 3 of the best 4 teams are all in the same flight. There is a similar, but less severe situation in levle 4.0. A small number of teams should be seeded (by a knowledgable committee) and the remainder should be distributed randomly to flights. Seeded teams should be announced. The lack of transparency surrounding your current process only makes matters worse.

    3) We should strive to have a round robin City Championship as we had done for many years. That is the fairest approach especially when you are sending TWO teams to Sectionals.

    4) The long-standing policy of giving the fall winner a free ride into the City Championship should be reviewed. Many players think that no team should play an entire season of meaningless matches. A better approach may be (starting in 2009) to give the fall winner a spot in the QT. That gives them the incentive to try to improve their position by finishing first in their flight.

    Some people think that the DTA is arrogant and resistant to change. I hope you can show those people that they are wrong and that you are willing to consider these constructive suggestions.

    - Death Volley
    4.0 League Player

  5. I must have played you a few years back. I haven't played much singles since the knee surgery.

  6. Ar Hacker. Sign up for the ladder and send me a challenge through the ladder and I will accept. Eddie

  7. Mitch. Sign up on the ladder so I can challange you to play. I am not talking trash. You beat me pretty good. Just want to play again. Eddie

  8. The posting at 7:28 pm was a very good letter/comment of something that needs to be sent to the DTA and I agree with it totally. Being a captain in the Death Flight I am fully aware of the fact that something needs to be done to prevent future groupings like we have in 3.5 C.
    Also there are many other issues that could be looked at in the future, but this would be a good place to start.
    Thanks for your effort in putting this together.

  9. I agree with Death Volley. We have good leagues but leagues can be better. There is no reason that those types of improvments couldn't be made in 2009.

  10. Eddie sent you a PM, hopefully times will work out. I actually might even be in town Thursday evening but not officially sure yet, depends on when I leave Conway with the family.

    Keith it has been about 2.5 years since we played, you hit some great shots late in the 3rd to take it, was a fun match at Quad C.

    The letter to DTA is a great letter that states the points well without shoving it in their face. I could probably take some lessons when dealing with ATA, not that it would work.


  11. The DTA sucks. It's run by a bunch of obnoxious old farts. They do a piss poor job with league administration but nothing will change!

  12. Let's stop the name-calling. There are a lot of good people at the DTA and they do a lot of good things for the community.

    - Bob Bender

  13. If you hate the DTA so much, get involved and make the changes. A lot of the DTA is comprised of people volunteering their own time. It is too easy to just sit around and complain about the system. If you really hate the system, get involved and change it. Saying the DTA sucks. Now that is productive. I challenge that person to get involved and run a league himself/herself. Amen to Bob Bender's post.

  14. Off Topic -
    I was just looking at the FT Worth league

    1 Singles 3 Doubles


    Saw a lot of 2-2 wins,
    Does that come down to sets? Games?
    That is weak.

    Anybody ever played in FW leagues,

    I live in Flower Mound,
    So Playing at In FW is about the same as going to Rockwall or Rowllet for me, and Arlington, Southlake, Hilton DFW are all pretty close,
    Compared to Dallas is the FW league wack?

  15. OC_BL:
    You are looking at the Fall League in which FTW plays only 1S and 3D, the Spring league is just like everyother district. Typically the Fall league in FTW is smaller so they shorten the matches somewhat.
    There are some good teams in FTW, namely Flying Eagles and Southlake. I played on the Goldfield team for about 4 years, while I lived in Denton.

  16. Go to hell Bender! Why are you always defending the DTA? The DTA sucks. What do they do for us except organize flights and schedules? And those are routinely messed up. Why don't they get their act together?

  17. Infidel!!!
    How dare you speak to Father Bob that way,
    I would hand on a Crucifix and walk a 100 miles on my hands and knees just be be on Father Bob's team,
    What ever he says is from his lips to the ears of God,
    He is 100% infallible.

  18. Death Volley,

    Good email! I think the vast majority of league players would like to see some improvements in the areas mentioned. Hopefully positive changes will be considered.

    - Top Seed

  19. I agree that the DTA is doing the best job possible. Do they make mistakes? Sure but it is hard to know all players/teams in all flights in all levels.

    I wish they would just make a random drawing and if there is a death flight, it was just bad luck.

    I know 4.0 Flight D and 3.5 Flight C ended up being disproportionately tough. Even in a random drawing, that could happen. If we keep it in perspective, regardless of where we finish, we still do not win any money.

  20. Does anyone else hate off weeks?

    The blog They seems to deteriorate to "I hate the DTA" or Garland is tanking. Of course, the newest is Eddie Hill challenged Federer and R-Fed is quaking in his Nikes.

  21. I am with you on that. I hate these off weeks. I go around challenging everyone to play. Do you think R Fed will play me.. really. I thought I already played him, but it was just Mitch. Not talking trash Mitch, that is a compliment. Eddie

  22. I have a great idea...let's all ignore the anonymous poster who stated the DTA "sucks" From now on just ignore and do not respond to his post anymore. Maybe, come election time we can all show up at the DTA and vote someone into the system who is willing to try to help make some improvements in the system.

    TennisLink shows 3,869 participants in spring leagues. Each of those individuals paid $33 to sign up. That's a total of $127,677. Add the fall league and your can double that to about $260,000. THAT'S BIG $$$.

    The DTA does not pay our court costs or buy balls, etc. All they do is give us a schedule (and wrist bands). WHERE DOES OUR MONEY GO??? Really, where???

    And for that kind of money don't you think the DTA should do a better job with flights, schedules, etc? Also they DO score pretty high on the "arrogance meter".

  24. I will agree with most of the arguments against the DTA, but I don't know if I really understand the issue with flight assignment. How is the DTA supposed to know every season who the good teams are. Do you use the avergage Dynamic rating of the players on a team or what? Teams have a different set of playters every season, even if the core of some teams stay the same. One or two additions to a few teams especially if they are brought down from 4.5 can change the landscape of a team completely. I think it is asking a little much for them to get as detailed as it would require to truly balance all the flights. The fact is if you can't finish in the top two in any flight then you aren't going to make it out of the city playoffs. The DTAs job is to form a league that allows players to have fun playing tennis and put together the best system to send the 2 best teams from the area to the State tournament.

    It is apparent who the top 3 teams are and none of them are in the same flights so they did a pretty good job. As for the 4th team it probably is in flight D or A (sorry flight C), but they will still make the QT and be able to prove themselves on the court.

  25. Who are scumbags that criticize others but don't have the balls to state their names? Come out of the cracks you snakes.

    I have been reading this blog for weeks and there is considerable disagreement as to which are the best teams. And this is several weeks into the season. In addition, as I have read it, there have been several surprises. SO HOW IN THE HELL DOES THE DTA KNOW BETTER THAN US BEFORE THE SEASON EVEN STARTS? Who is the idiot that thinks he's great at predicting scores after the game is over?


  26. The DTA basher is the same guy I always see at my daughter's softball games that sits in the stands and screams at the high school kids umpiring the game for $10 while at the same time screaming obscenities at 10-12 year-old girls and their volunteer coaches. We all know that guy, he is normally the only person in the stands that is completely clueless about how much of a dick he is. It is funny and sad at the same time.


  27. The DTA basher is the same guy I always see at my daughter's softball games that sits in the stands and screams at the high school kids umpiring the game for $10 while at the same time screaming obscenities at 10-12 year-old girls and their volunteer coaches. We all know that guy, he is normally the only person in the stands that is completely clueless about how much of a dick he is. It is funny and sad at the same time.


  28. That sounds like alot of people on this blog.

  29. The issue of putting teams into flights is one of FAIRNESS. Currently a clerk at the DTA puts ALL teams into flights. NOTHING IS RANDOM. That conflicts with the way almost all tennis draws are done.

    The acceptable method is to seed a few teams (maybe 1 or 2 teams per flight) and distribute the rest RANDONLY. It is called a "draw". That's the traditional and acceptable way these things are done in tennis. And that's what the DTA should do.

    With a random draw, you may get a "good" draw or you may get a "bad" draw but at least you know it was luck. So you have no complaints.

    Currently if your team is placed in a strong flight, it was not random at all _ but the result of where the DTA clerk placed your team. That is just not appropriate and the DTA knows it.

    This would be very easy for the DTA to correct if they wanted to. I think this issue has been raised with the DTA in the past but they stonewall. That's why you see some bloggers raise the issue of arrogance and stubbornness.

  30. It shouldn't matter which division you are in. Either your team is good or it's not.

  31. I'm not a DTA basher. Just an advocate for postive change. The blogger above outlined the situation pretty clearly.

    No team should be guaranteed a "good" placement within the various flights. BUT ALL TEAMS SHOULD RECEIVE A FAIR, RANDOM DRAW.

    Currently, if your team is placed in a very strong flight, it is NOT the result of a "bad draw". It is where your team was INTENTIONALLY placed.

    All the bloggers are asking for is a RANDOM DRAW which is how tennis competitions have been run for 100+ years.

    With a random draw, no one has any basis for complaining. Every team would have an EQUAL CHANCE.

    - Death Volley

  32. Anonymous 3:51pm
    YOU ARE SUCH AN IDIOT! You must be a liberal democrat.

    The point is you can have a "good" team and not make the playoffs if you are in a very strong flight. You can have an "average" team and make the playoffs if you are in a very weak flight. So it matters big time.

    Bloggers are just asking for a fair, random draw _ or in other words an equal chance. If you are retarded please ask one of your children to explain it to you.

  33. It looks like the placing of teams is random. That is why the divisions are so unbalanced. All these complainers must be on decent teams that were put in 4.0division D. You don't hear the Lakes complaining about their draw.

  34. Hey Eddie,

    No, it's all good. I haven't taken anything you've said as trash talking, and I know you want to play some good tennis.

    I haven't played in two weeks, my work schedule has been pretty brutal and I also took a trip. I'm booked up for this weekend with 3 matches or I'd hit with you tomorrow or Sunday.

    Give Mikey "Evil" Pearson another call. He's a great guy, and I think y'all would have a great match.

  35. I don't know who said this, but it was pretty damn funny:

    Anonymous 3:51pm
    YOU ARE SUCH AN IDIOT! You must be a liberal democrat.

  36. No matter what anyone has to say that is for the way the dta does it now, you're wrong. It should be a random draw, except for the top 6 seeds (if there are 3 groups). Hopefully the powers that be, which should be a committee of several, can determine from the previous year and from other info available, who the seeds should be. After the seeds are placed a random draw is proper.

    All of the tournaments use all of the info that is available and uses the rolling twelve months rankings as a starting point. Head to head match ups from tournaments and league play are also factored in, not just the players ranking.

    It would be OK for all of us if the draw was what put other tough teams within the same flight, not some person placing us there.

  37. I'm a 4.0 league player and I play a few tournaments as well.

    I assumed the DTA used a random process for putting teams into flights. Since they do not, then I agree with the above bloggers.

    At tournaments a few players/teams are seeded and the rest are put into the draw RANDOMLY. No one complains about their draw because they know it is random.

    There are even USTA regulations about how many teams/players to seed and how the random draw is done. They even have computer software that generates the random draw.

    WHY CAN'T THE DTA FOLLOW GENERALLY ACCEPTED PROCEDURES FOR SEEDING AND RANDOM DRAWS? Why would they do anything different? In this case I think they deserve the criticism.

  38. FLIGHT D - Level 4.0
    I'm a 4.0 league player in Flight D. If the season ended today, Spring Park/Walters would finish 1st, LBH/Spagnola 2nd and Brookhaven/Pearlman 3rd. Stonebridge/Muetzel would NOT make the playoffs. IN AT LEAST TWO OF THE OTHER FLIGHTS, STONEBRIDGE WOULD EASILY FINISH IN THE TOP 3 AND MAKE THE PLAYOFFS.

    So Stonebridge (or one of the other strong teams) will miss the playoffs. NOT BECAUSE THEY HAD BAD LUCK WITH THE DRAW. THERE WAS NO "DRAW". BUT BECAUSE A DTA CLERK DECIDED TO SET UP THE FLIGHTS IN THIS FASHION.

    This type of arbirary process is just not fair.

  39. "life is not fair".. move on.

  40. Probably the biggest descrepancy in flights this year is in level 3.5 Flight C.

    You have 4 really outstanding teams with Oak Creek, Life Time, Brookhaven and Oakridge. Only three of those teams can make the playoffs. Suppose Oakridge finishes 4th (somebody has to) and misses the playoffs. They would EASILY make the top 3 in any of the other flights. (The same could be said for Brookhaven.)

    Many the DTA clerk who puts the teams into flights just doesn't like David Prather. So David finds his team in an outrageously strong flight. Or maybe the DTA clerk has something against John Kramer. Or whatever.

    It is just as easy to have a random draw so why not do it correctly and avoid the potential apperance of wrong-doing???

  41. Does making the playoffs really matter if you cant beat 2 of the top 4 teams. The example with Pearlman and Stonebridge it really just doesnt matter because they cant beat any of the top teams any way. Keep your whining to a minimum.

    Would they make the playoffs in another division...possibly, does it change what 2 teams are coming out of Dallas - I think not.

  42. For whoever that has made an assumption that there is no method behind this madness, you all are wrong. Just because you don't know what it is, doesn't mean there is no system. It is not a perfect system, but doesn't mean there is no system as you guys make it sound.

    I looked at the distribution of teams and have come up with the three patterns:
    1) Minimize the overlap of the teams you played with during the previous two seasons - makes sense you don't want to keep playing the same teams.
    2) Have 3 to 4 teams who are playoff capable (based on previous two season playoff results) in each flight.
    3)Avoid placing the teams that faced each other in the playoffs during the previous 2 seasons, within the same flights

    There are probably other, but I see evidence for these three patterns and will show you in the following example.

    Let's take Brookhaven/Bartlett's the last three seasons. Between spring 07 and Fall 08 they have only 2 team overlap (Garland, LBH); between fall 08 and Spring 08 they have only 2 team overlap (JCC, Canyon Creek) and between Spring 07 and Spring 08 they have 2 team overlap (HP/Harrigan, LBH) - see a pattern...

    Also, they make sure there are 3 to 4 playoff contenders (based on the previous 2 or 3 seasons) in that flight. For example, Spring 07 (Brookhaven/Bartlett, Lakes, StoneBridge, Garland), Fall 08 (BH/Bartlett, Garland, Tbar, LifeTime) and Spring 08(GreenHill, BH/Bartlett, Canyon Creek)- see a pattern...

    The same goes with pattern 3 also.

    This is complex, dynamic, non-deterministic crap, scheduling flights may be easier than scheduling tennis flights. So quit moaning and groaning about a 4th place team possibly not making the playoffs, I would be happy if the system makes sure the top 2 teams make it to the playoffs from each flight. Go back to playing some good tennis and have fun with stuff you don't have control over, unless you want to turn into a rocket scientist and come up with the perfect system, then be my guest.

  43. Let me put it very simply. If you have a good team in a strong division and you don't make the playoffs, then you're just not good enough and you would be wasting you and everybody else's time because you're certaintly not going to sectionals.

    Life's tough. If you got a bad draw, that life. Just win or shut-up and stop whining like a little girl. Fair is for wimps. Tough is for winners. I enjoy and look forward to tough competition and big challenges. I would rather lose a tough match to a 4.0 player than win an easy match against 3.0 player.


  44. Hector, you used the phrase "if you get a bad draw" quit complaining, well that's what this whole thing is about, not getting a "draw". I guess you can't remember all of what's been said.

    And to the one that said, "life's not fair, get over it", well you're right, but when there is something that could be done to improve on something it should be done and the part about being life not being fair, well when we have to hear morons that haven't a clue you're right; it's not fair to hear from you.

  45. To Anonymous at 7:58

    It can't get any simpler. WIN!!! Draw or no draw my point doesn't change. If you can't beat the teams in your division, you're not one of the better teams and you should not be in playoffs anyway. It is irrelevant as to how the teams are distribute, by design or at random, if you can't win its no one else's fault but your own. When I lose I do not look for others to blame. I take full responsibility. If you were unfairly placed in a super tough division and you lost to the better teams, what makes you think that it would be any different in the playoffs. You would probably get spank even worse. Losing at the division level saves you the embarrassment of getting crushed in the playoffs.


  46. I know I come across harsh but I do not think it is appropriate to blame DTA when the competition is not perfectly balanced or too tough. Just take the cards you've been dealt and do the best that you can.


  47. Hector,
    You don't understand what people are complaining about.

    Bloggers are not blaming the DTA because the flights are not balanced. We are blaming the DTA because the PROCESS they use to put teams into flights is not fair. Re-read that a few times until you understand the difference.

    We do NOT have a random draw _ which is the traditional and fair way to distribute teams. If we had a random draw and a team ended up in a very strong flight, then there would be no complaints _ because every team had an equal CHANCE. (Many of us play tournaments and we do not complain when we get a bad draw, because we know it was a fair PROCESS.)

    But there is a legitmate complaint when all teams are placed into flights by a clerk who doesn't know much about men's teams.

    We all know "life is not fair". But in this case it is EASIER to do what is fair (have a random draw) than to let some clerk play god by putting teams wherever she wants.

  48. 6:26 pm Poster


    Competing in the City Playoffs is one of the most fun things about League Tennis _ whether it be the QT or the City Championship. And everyone should have an equal CHANCE to make it.

    Probably Brookhaven/Pearlman and Stonebridge/Muetzel cannot win 1st or 2nd place at City. Still they deserve the enjoyable opportunity to compete. Instead, one of those teams will be on the sidelines while a WEAKER team makes the playoffs.

    But bloggers are not complaining about the uneven flights per se. We are complaining about the unfair PROCESS which put teams into flights.

    The DTA should simply seed 1 or 2 teams per flight and distribute the rest of the teams by RANDOM DRAW. Then everyone has an equal CHANCE and there will be no complaints. That is the way almost all tennis organizations have handled this for years!

    It is very wrong for a DTA clerk to simply put all teams where she thinks they should go. (Maybe the DTA clerk was just pissed off at Pearlman or Muetzel this year.) NO OTHER REPUTABLE TENNIS ORGANIZATION IN THE COUNTRY JUST LET'S SOME CLERK PUT TEAMS WHEVEREVER SHE WANTS!

  49. Hector, I agree with you a 110%. Your argument may be blunt, but it is well stated and to the point.

    To Anonymous 6:07am

    Quit assuming that the assignment to flights is done in an arbitrary fashion by a clerk. It does not matter who does it, even if you wrote the most complex computer program, there is just so many variables to take into account, that it would not be perfect. People who think this is trivial, do not understand or appreciate the complexity.

    The assignment is done based on Team accomplishments in the past 2-3 seasons, and does not go into who is playing in what teams. Since there was no SP/Walters team in Fall 08 (or was there?), they were not taken as a serious contender, so they were put into a group that had 2 or 3 other playoff teams.

    Quit whining and go back to playing and winning.

  50. I saw a story on the USTA National website last year about putting teams into flights at the USTA Nationals. They use a RANDOM draw. They hold a "draw party" and pull section names out of a hat to determine how teams are placed into flights.

    A random draw is fair to eveyone. And it is very easy to do. But to have a single clerical individual put all teams into flights at her own descretion is arrogant and unfair.

    Come on guys, this is not difficult to understand.

    I do not want to bash the DTA. But in this case what they are doing is wrong and it can be EASILY fixed.

    - Hardcourt

  51. To 6:48pm Poster
    A DTA clerk (who knows very little about Men's league tennis)puts EVERY team into flights AT HER SOLE DESCRETION.

    We do not know what is going on in her head. Maybe there is some logic to some of what she does. But that still does NOT make it right. Or maybe she just does not like certain teams. We don't know.

    Yes, there are probably a million factors that could be considered. If you see paterns, then good for you. But it does NOT have to be complicated.

    The way this is done in tennis my nearly every organization in the world, is that you seed 1 or 2 teams per flight and the rest are placed into flights RANDOMLY. There are even USTA guidelines as to how this should be done.

    The national USTA organization, for example, places teams RANDOMLY into flights at all League Tennis National competitions.


  52. A random draw (with a small number of seeded teams) could also result in flights that are unequal in ability. BUT AT LEAST IT WOULD BE A FAIR PROCESS. I like that a lot better than relying on a single clerk making all the decisions.

    - Top Seed

  53. You guys have dead wrong assumptions and provide no evidence, other than the pointers to what you saw somewhere on the internet, sometime, or that you know this is how it is done. Bunch of CAPITAL LETTERS does not make your assumptions true or convincing, it is still a bunch of BS.

    Good luck with your mission to change the system, you are wasting your time.

  54. Sure . . . if you happen to be the best 4.0 team in town it does not matter which other teams are in your flight. But it matters a great deal for teams which are on the fringes on making the playoffs. It is much easier for an above average team to make the playoffs when they are placed in a weak flight. SO IT IS IMPORTANT THAT WE PLACE TEAMS INTO FLIGHTS FAIRLY.

  55. Hector,
    Not every team can win the playoffs. It is just great to MAKE the playoffs and enjoy the competition.

    You say it does not matter if a team misses the playoffs because they would lose in the playoffs anyway. That's not true. It does matter a lot to the players and teams involved. They want an equal opportunity just to compete in the playoffs.

    Why not seed a few teams and distribute the rest randomly so that every team could feel like they had a fair chance at a decent draw? That eliminates the complexity and is easy to do. In fact every USTA tournament is run jyst like that.

    You say it doesn't matter how teams are placed in flghts. It does matter to a lot of people. Why not do it correctly _ consistent with the National USTA organization???

  56. The big disagreement here is that alot of people feel the flights are fair. None of the top 3 teams are in the same flight - thats it. Are all flights equal, of course not - thats an impossible request.

    Stop talking about a process you know nothing about. You are making assumptions based on rumors. The DTA has done ok on flight assignments, its the other issues we should focus on.

  57. What if I were to tell you HP, Lakes and Springpark were all 3 seeded and everyone else WAS randomly placed into flights. This seems to be your argument - would it shut you up? Somehow I think not.

  58. Poster 7:09 am
    You say: "You guys have dead wrong assumptions". You are just too dumb to recognize the truth.

    The DTA does not publish how they place teams into flights because they know what they are doing is wrong. That's why they do it behind closed doors. And it is inconsistent with procedures used by the National USTA organization (which uses a random draw.)

    IN DALLAS ALL TEAMS ARE ASSIGNED TO FLIGHTS BY A SINGLE CLERK. I'm sure she has some logical to what she does. I'm also sure she thinks it is very complex. And I'm sure someone could argue that there are millions of factors to consider.

    But why not use a method that has been used for many years by other tennis organizations and that everyone accepts as fair? That is a RANDOM DRAW.

    A random draw is easier than what we do now and it is fairer. This should be a no-brainer. Even a dumb-ass like you should get on board.

  59. Wow, this is an interesting exchange. Let me see if I got this right:
    1) A lot of men's teams play only 7 matches this year.
    2) Teams are assigned to flights at the sole descretion of a DTA clerk with no random draw.
    3) In men's 4.0 we no longer play a round robin (which we have played for the last 10+ years)
    4) Fall winners play an entire local season of meaningless matches with no incentive to win any lines until the City Championship.

    I'm starting to agree with the guy that said the DTA sucks!

  60. 7:35 am Poster:

    The answer to your questions is a resounding YES!

    If HP, Life Time, SP and I guess a 4th team were seeded and one put into each flight. And if the rest of the teams were randomly distributed _ then yes everyone would shut up. That is exactly what we are asking for. That is also exactly what they do for tournaments _ an complaints are very rare. They also use a random draw for the USTA Nationals.

    The seeded teams should be announced like they do for tournament and the random draw should be observed. Then no one has any complaints.

    What could possibly be wrong with doing this correctly?

  61. No one expects all flights to be equal in team strength. Bloggers just want a FAIR PROCESS for putting teams into flights.

    Who could disagree with that??? Is there anyone out there that favors an unfair process???

    It is the responsibilty of the DTA to explain their process for putting teams into flights. But they have intentionally avoided doing that. When we ask this question we are just told that "it is very complicated". Maybe they could clear this up with one small email or web posting.

    Having had some dealings with the DTA in the past, I believe those bloggers that say a single clerk assigns all teams to flights.

    If the DTA had a fair, random process they would have communicated that to us _ rather than hiding behind the answer "it is very complicated".

    What I am hearing some people say is (1) it does not matter and (2) it is very complicated.

    It may not matter to the best team in town but the composition of your flight DOES matter a lot to players and teams trying to make the playoffs. Most teams play USTA League knowing that they will not win the City Championship. But they compete for fun and they want a fair chance to make playoffs.

    (2) This does not have to be complicated. Just seed 1 or 2 teams per flight and place the ohter teams into flights by random draw. I do not see any reason not to make this a fair, random process.

    There have been a lot of concerns expressed on this website about HOW men's league teams are assigned to flights.

    Can you tell us how this process works? Is it a fair, random process?

    A lot of league players would like to hear from you.

  64. For everyones info, Rick Lyon is also involved in the process with that clerk. He is a captain of one team. If one captain is in on the process, then more should be.

    The earlier comment made by a blogger got me thinking about the financial side to our leagues.

    Let's say leagues generate $300,000 in player league fees including mens, womens, seniors, combo, mixed, etc. Who is spending that money and where does it go? DOES ANYBODY KNOW?

    I'm not complaining or accusing anybody of anything. But does anybody know?

  66. cool wristbands!

  67. I am a 4.5 league player who moved from New York to Dallas in the winter. (I love your home prices down here!) A few years ago I played 4.5 in Manhattan's Metro league. I haven't posted to this site before but I have recently started reading some of the blogs.

    I can't believe putting teams into flights is such a controversy. I do understand some guys saying it is not important to them. On the other hand I can see where this would be very important to teams "on the bubble" between making playoffs and missing.

    I have never heard of any tennis organization allowing a single person to place ALL the teams into flights subjectively. It is almost universal for tennis organizations to seed a few teams and use a random draw to distribute the remaining teams. That provides a process that is fair to everyone and you avoid these types of discussions. It is hard for me to believe that any credible local organization would oppose doing it that way.

    Also, I don't get the impression that the bloggers are trying to obtain an unfair advantage. They just want a process that is fair for everyone. I think we should all support a positive change _ so that we can get by this and focus on tennis.

    I hope you'll excuse me for not including my name. But some of you guys are a little crazy.
    NY Metro Man

    Does anybody really give a crap about the challenge matches except for the people actually playing???

  69. welcome NY'er. So it is more expensive in NY. It was actually cheaper when I played on the LEFT coast. I agree the bloggers are crazy but the don't bite, that hard anyway.

    Challenge matches. I think some might care a little a lot of the top 3.5s are playing each other before they run into each before the playoffs. I hope some of the 4.0s do the same. Don't think you are hiding your weaknesses by staying away I have extensive grades on each of you and email them to the opponent of my choice depending on my mood that day. JK :)

  70. Everyone who plays cares,
    Everyone who is too weak to man up,
    I guess does not,
    I think we would have a lot more ladder participation if we could figure out a way to let people play as Anonymous.
    May be we can have a paper bag match or a Luche libre type masks,

    Personally I love the idea,
    I don't have to pay league fees to play, it's flexible, and access to players I have not played before,

    Team practices get kind of stale after a while,

    1) Canyon Creek/Jolly beats Stonebridge 5-0.
    This decisive win establishes Canyon Creek as one of the elite teams and leaves Stonebridge shaking their heads.

    2) Oak Creek's 3-2 win over Oakridge. This match clearly could have gone either way with all three lines won by Oak Creek in third set tiebreaks.

    3) Oakridge's 3-2 win over Life Time/Ferrell. Another cliff hanger that could easily have gone the other way. Oakridge won two lines by third set tiebreak.

    4) Oak Creek's 4-1 win over Brookhaven/Kraemer. This was a very close match with Oak Creek again winning three lines by third set tiebreak. This match puts Oak Creek in the driver's seat in Flight C and shows that Brookhaven can play with anyone.

    5) Earlier in the season, Canyon Creek/Jolly's 3-2 win over Gleneagles has proven to be very important. Canyon Creek now stands at 5-0 in Flight B with wins against both Stonebridge (4-1) and Gleneagles (4-1).

    6) Garland's closer than expected 3-2 win over Cannyon Creek/Carmen. There was a lot of noise about Garland not trying but they did win and that's all that matters. Canyon Creek/Carmen (4-1) showed they will be a good QT team.

  72. OK here's my attempt to add some different controversy to the blog. Since we all agree that Keith and Steven suck after their loss to Gene and Mitch. I propose we find out which one of them sucks more. I say we set up two matches against Gene and Mitch and I'll play with Steven in one and Keith in the other. Obviously whichever match Gene and Mitch win more lopsided will tell us which of them is to blame more. Don't worry I'll try to suck equally in both matches. Kraemer you're welcome to broker the deal if you would like of course. OK let's talk about how much Keith and Steven suck some more :) Get it in before they win Waco though.

  73. I understand the DTA uses some of our league fees to pay for trips and dinners for Board members. Not much of our league fees goes towards doing anything for league players.

  74. Kern, don't mention Waco...winning one of these was hard enough without everyone gunning for us. See you out there since I'm sure you're going to.


  75. I never been there but several captains told me that the DTA maintains a very expensive office complex and that nearly 100% of our league fees go to towards rent. But the worst thing is that I was told it is really not needed. It's just a "club House" for board members to socialize. Anyone else know anything about that?

  76. I would hope/assume that the money goes towards Dallas juniors,
    But I seem to be paying through the teeth for my jr.

    my understanding is that all non-for-profit organizations must provide financial's on request for anybody who wants them,

    if you ask me real nice I will make a request, scan the documents and post them online,

    Just let me know.

  77. OK, can we start our own tennis association and run the league stuff ourselves? If there is that much being made and we have enough people to run it, why can't we do this? If there are only a couple of clerks and 1 or 2 others that actually do this, I believe it can be done.

    I will reveal myself when someone takes me serious. I am looking for a new direction in life to go for a job and such, I know plenty of people to work with on getting this started, I love tennis and would like to consider all of the options in this arena. Comments please.

  78. USTA Texas Form 990

  79. Anyhow know 4.0 or 4.5 results for the local Samuell Grand tournament?

  80. DTA Form 990 for 2006

  81. The DTA is a nonprofit organization but they are VERY wasteful with our money. Board members get a lot of personal perks.

    I've heard quite a few people say the DTA office is outrageously expensive and not really needed. But having a permanent office facility appeals to the egos of Board members.

    League fees should be less than 1/2 what they are today.

  82. Anonymous 9:22pm
    I like the idea of starting our own tennis organization which would be more responsive to league players.

    The way to begin would be to organize our own fall leagues. If we could get a good number of players and teams we could hit them where it hurts _ in the pocketbook. We could probably charge league players about $10 each instead of $33.

    The key would be getting captains on board. We already recruit and sign up players, get our own courts, provide balls, play our matches, etc. So if we can get the captains, we'll get the players.

    Are you willing to be on point to get this organized???

  83. MEN's 4.0 / 10 MATCHES or 7 WHICH IS BETTER?

    There are currently 32 teams in Men's 4.0. The DTA decided to split the teams into FOUR flights with 8 teams each. Because there are only 8 teams per flight we all play only 7 local league matches.

    It would have been far better to put all our teams into only THREE flights. We would have 11 teams in Flights A and B and 10 teams in Flight C. That means that teams in Flights A and B would play 10 matches while teams in Flight C would play 9 local league matches.

    THIS IS NOT DIFFICULT. Why does the DTA screw up easy, basic decisions like this? I'm not trying to bash the DTA but this is a serious slip up which should never have happened.

  84. To be really blunt, here is why that happened:

    The DTA allows an ignorant but arrogant clerk to make those decisions. She constantly messes up yet the DTA allows her to make most of the key decisions which impact our league.

    And the DTA really does not care whether we like it or not.


    For more than 10 years our City Championship has been a round robin event. Without any valid reasons and without input from captains and without discussion this was changed in 2008 to a very poor format. The new format provides only 2 matches for most teams while a 5 or 6 team round robin would provide 4 or 5 matches for every team. Also the new approach is not as fair as a round robin structure.


    Did we get to discuss this change? Did we get to vote on this? Of course not. This incredibly poor decision was made soley by DTA clerk.

    There is still time to fix this for 2008 but the arrogant league administrators at the DTA will just ignore our concerns.

  86. I am definitely willing to work with those captains that want to start a new tennis league. The DTA actually does very little for us so this is very doable. We do not need the DTA or the USTA to form good leagues.

    A lot of guys have expressed very legitmate concerns about our leagues. I'd like to give the DTA just a little more time to respond to our issues. But if we do not hear from them, then I propose we oranize our own fall league.

    Cary, can you help us get some response from the DTA? I don't know anyone there. Or do you feel like most of us, they just don't care what we think?

    If we don't get a response from the DTA (a good bet) will you help us form a new tennis organization. I think you would be a great President. It would be a part-time job and we could pay a salary (out of league fees) for doing the job.

    Please give us your views.

    - Hardcourt

  87. Wow Marc, that would be great if you could get some financial information form those guys at the DTA and post it online.

    I'd like to know how much of OUR money they are spending for meals, travel, entertainment, etc. Also how much are they spending on their expensive offices? I doubt that other tennis organizations in Houston, Fort Worth, San Antonio, etc have this type of expensive facility.

  88. I never thought about that issue before. Why does the DTA need an expensive office suite? If the DTA Board needs to meet why can't they meet at a school, or church or someone's home? Why spend our money for that?

    The DTA asks us to give money to help children but I think they are helping themselves.

    Currently a DTA clerk, who knows little about mens' league tennis, places EVERY team into flights exactly where she wants them to be. NOTHING IS RANDOM. Her favorite teams/players usually end up in weaker flights. If she doesn't like you, your team will likely end up in a very strong flight.

    The widely accepted way to do this in the tennis community around the world, is to seed a few teams and place the others by RANDOM DRAW. Everyone agrees this is the fairest way to assign teams to flights.

    Why is the placement of our teams left to the whim of a DTA clerk? Who could possibly think that this is better than a random draw???

    It looks to me like a bunch of bloggers have aired some very legitmate concerns about our leagues.

    If the DTA cannot address our concerns, let's boycott their fund-raising event in October which I think they call the Dallas Cup. It's a crappy event anyway and why give them any more of our money. Maybe we could have our own competing event.

    I am also on board with forming our own non-DTA leagues in the fall.

    I know Atlanta has more players in non-USTA leagues than in USTA leagues. If we start our own fall league we can grow it over the years into something that is really special!

  91. The 2005 tax return shows the DTA receive net revenue of $30,240.00 for the Dallas Cup event.

  92. Thanks! If DTA does not address our issues let's stop supporting that event.

    I get the feeling that the DTA only wants our money. They are not really interested in improving our leagues.

  93. You people are retarded and are completely clueless.

    The DTA board meetings are open to the public. Just get the date and get on the calendar to present your concerns. However, most of you retards would do more harm than good.

  94. Thank you Jane Gilpin for your reply. We expected no less.

  95. Yep thanks for the all dollars and cents but I do think attending a meeting and talking about cocerns would be the first step about talking about improvements/changes.

    I do know what the DTA is hard work and maybe there are things that can change but we should utilize them as a resource and if that doesn't work then resort to other ideas.

    Coming from So Cal the SCTA (Southern California Tennis Assoc) was run by a husband and wife out of their own home. They did a great job on their own but had about 1/2 the participants so as large as our group is the DTA does have a lot to deal with including the Jr. Program down at Samuel Grand.

    I would be definitely be interested in making it to a meeting to see about changes for the future especially in regards to the fall seasons for the future.

  96. The DTA tries hard to be fair to all players and teams. And they do a good job overall in administering our leagues.

    But some bloggers have raised some valid issues and made some good suggestions. Here is a summary:

    That is a good goal but is not always possible based on the number of teams and the number of weeks available to play. I do think they could have done a better job with level 4.0 this year.

    I agree with that suggestion. I'm sure the DTA already has a reasonable process for handling this but nothing is quite as fair as a random draw.

    That comment is coming from 4.0 players and seems valid to me.

    I don't have an opinion on this one, but some suggest a free pass only to the QT. This looks like a reasonable topic to discuss and maybe vote on.

    My experience with the DTA is that they are very frugal in spending their money. I do not think this should be an issue. They do rent some office space but that facility is needed to provide programs and services to children and the underpriviledged. All the office staff at the DTA works very hard.

    Finally I do think the DTA should try to communicate back to you all either by email to captains or by a note on this website. Some of issues could probably be clarified pretty easily. Silence just makes things worse. Commuication usually helps. We all want to make good leagues even better!

    -Bob Bender

  97. thanks bob!!! and these guys wonder where the money goes. they have'nt ther foggest clue. look for my check in the mail. i'll send your team two dozon more wristbands to give out. you are the best!!!! my favorite!!!!!

    thanks again,


  98. cary,

    i've been reading this b.s. for months now (and my name is not Hector). what ever happened to your asswoping from john and his doubles partn'r???? could you please inform us???? thanks

  99. Dear Mr. National Champion Captian Bob, don't do us any favores. We all know YOUR TEAM SANDBAGS-don't we. I have an ideal, why don't your team (players) play their real level???? SLACKER!!!!!!!!!

  100. Well doesn't Tina Anderson make over $ 60,000.00
    per year? That's allot isn't it?

  101. Is Tina single??? If so, what does it matter what see make per year(other than her looks). Please post her picture. What devision does Tine play in? Could you set me up?

  102. FYI - Check out the following web address below for some pics of the David Prather vs Jonathan Marcus blog match

  103. Trying again -

    The tail end of the link is getting cut off when I publish it.

    Your going to have to cut and paste the following below as one link.

  104. Once you get to the web site; click on start presentation (upper right hand corner) and then click on the arrows (lower left had corner) to view each slide.

  105. Hey, Tina's here-We're getting back together.

  106. Tina Anderson is a fat cow. A real buffet buster! Somebody post a picture so we can all get a good laugh.

    I can't believe she makes $60,000 for part-time work.

    Where are you finding the financial information about the DTA???

  107. This is really weird! I assumed that a random draw was used to place teams into flights. Now I find out that all teams are arbitrarily grouped together and placed into flights. I've played leagues for quite a few years. When my team ended up in a very strong flight, I thought it was just "luck of the draw". But now I know it was by DESIGN. And that is not fair.

    Why would the DTA want to do it that way? Does anybody know why? But I certainly see why the DTA does not want to talk about it.

  108. I really don't get all the rants in this thread. Every year the DTA office is looking for volunteers to help make these leagues run smoother. I'm sure that if you really wanted to make a difference you could. I guess it is just easier to sit at home and complain.

  109. The DTA clerk who places teams inot flights never did anything productive or meaningful in her life. It just makes her feel good to have the power to place all the teams exactly where she wants them. It is a big ego thing.

    The DTA knows that this is not fair yet they let her continue doing it.

    That's why the DTA has never told players/captains how team placement is done. They know it is not done correctly and don't want people to know what they do.

  110. Poster 7:06 am
    Obviously you do not know the DTA very well. When they ask for volunteers they want people to stuff envelopes. If you tell them you want to help with seeding or putting teams into flights, they will tell you NO THANK YOU!

    The issue is about their processes not being fair.

    Plenty of people are willing to help them properly seed teams and set up a random process for placing teams into flights. But they do not want that type of help.

  111. Placing teams into flights is never a problem for me. Every year I send Jane $100 and every year my team is put into a very weak flight.

    Let's not change anything!

    (1) We have 32 teams in level 4.0. The DTA split the teams into FOUR flights with 8 teams each. That resulted in all teams playing only 7 matches. We should have split the teams into THREE Flights with 11 teams in two Flights and 10 teams in the other. That gives most teams 10 matches and the rest 9 matches.

    (2) Teams were arbitrarily placed into flights. This subjective process resulted in a big difference in the strengths of different flights. Teams which find themselves in an extraordinarily tough flight feel unfairly treated. We could have simply seeded a few teams and placed the others into flights randomly. A process everyone would view as fair.

    (3) None of the local matches really count for our fall winner and they have no incentive to win any match or any line. That easily could be changed so that every team has an incentive to play hard and win.

    (4) The City Championship for level 4.0 will be abbreviated this year with most teams playing only two matches. We easily could have had a round robin playoff which would be more fun, provide more matches and be fairer for everyone.

    Maybe in 2009 we'll have better league administration. It's really not that hard to do things appropriately . . .

  113. Nothing will chnage in 2009 unless the DTA recognizes their mistakes and starts to correct them.

  114. Guys – When I was determining the flights and scheduling the matches …. I knew that each team would only play 7 matches. In my option, that’s a lot of matches. But, I thought you guys would like to play maybe one more match, so that is why I scheduled that scrimmage match at the beginning of the season. I received a lot of positive feedback from many of the 4.0 guys stating they really enjoyed playing the scrimmage. Most of the guys stated that the scrimmage really helped them get into the swing of things.

  115. MOVING ON
    I agree with the suggestions made by bloggers on improving our leagues. Also, if you guys decide to boycott the Dallas Cup I'll join in. But now it's time to move on. We are in the middle of a great league season and a lot of exciting matches are ahead.

    Looking ahead at 3.5:
    May 31: Gleneagles vs LHB
    This is a must win for LBH to get back in the playoff race. Gleneagles needs to win to keep within striking distance of Canyon Creek.

    June 7:
    Greenhill/Kayser vs Canyon Creek/Jolly
    Canyon Creek is very strong, but can Greenhill pull an upset and get back in the hunt?
    Life Time vs Oak Creek
    Two awesome teams and a match too close to call. You guys can sell tickets to this one. One of these powerhouse teams will end up in the QT. Let the trash talking begin!

  116. Fans, don't get too excited about the June 7 match Life Time vs Oak Creek. Oak Creek has some nice guys but they are way overrated. We should beat them on June 7 by 4 - 1 or maybe 5 - 0.

    By the way, Oakridge was extremely lucky to beat us. We didn't have our best line-up and they had some unbelievable luck. (Those Oakridge guys should have run out and bought lottery tickets that day.) Anyway, that will never happen again. We don't expect to lose any more matches until maybe Nationals.

    Proud to be a "Life Timer"

  117. Who ever the "lifetime" idiot guy is, he isn't speaking for his team, as yes the match with oakridge was close and it could have gone either way, but that's the whole point; it could have gone either way. oakridge basically
    swept the singles and they knew the doubles would be tough and that they had to win one line in doubles and they did. I talked to dp their captain and he knew what the issues were. Oakridge also beat them the same way last fall, they won both singles and one of the doubles.
    You're wrong about one more thing, that was your best lineup, one of your guys just blew it by double faulting so much.
    Why don't you post your name little baby lifetime whiner?

  118. Wow,
    If your going to talk that much shit you need to post your name,

    It's pretty weak talking that noise and not standing up to it.

    I guess that is why you guys are not a real threat because you ddon't have the balls to stand up,

    ps. Oak Ridge v Lifetime 6-0, 6-0 is not luck, It's embarrassment!
    I was at that match, I saw what happened you Lost!!

  119. Oakridge boys lucky!! If my facts are correct Oakridge has come to your place and beat you two years in a row!


  120. How about a new thread - I see the Waco draws have been posted. Any predictions or analysis on the pending matchups?

  121. Agreed, all topics are getting pretty stale, let's start a few new threads and polls looking forward at the coming weeks.

  122. All this bitching from ANONYMOUS posters has got to stop. If you dont post your name Shut the hell up.About team lineups thats too bad if a team captain cant get his best guys available for the important matches.Oak Ridge never complains about losing a close match but some crybaby on Lifetime cant get over it.We beat you fair and square as Oak Creek did to us when My best doubles partner was in Califonia. If he had been there we might have won #1 doubles and the match but we didnt.Our Bad!!! So shut up and try to beat Oak Creek. Mark Ferrell is to nice of a guy to have cry babies on his team. So just go out and play tennis without all the excuses.Let the best teams WIN!!!

  123. Oh, forgot to mention . . .

    We are younger, in better shape, and better looking than you old guys! (*_*)

    Proud to be a Life Timer

  124. Too bad you don't play better tennis.

  125. This is a very uneventful week in 3.5. Yawn.

    In Flight A
    Garland v Springpark - Springpark v Eldorado might be interesting. Garland should not drop a match.

    HP v Hackberry - Hackberry actually lost to Springpark. HP should roll even with their inept singles, they should be fine this week.

    Canyon Creek v The Lakes - this is the best match but CC will win but may not sweep.

    Flight B
    CC v Stonebriar - Stonebriar is winless. CC should win 5-0, regardless of the lineup they send out.

    Gleneagles v LB Houston - This could be the marquis matchup of the 3.5 weekend. Gleneagles will probably win but this is not a gimme.

    Stone Bridge v Samuell Grand - Stonebridge should win but Samuell Grand could surprise them.

    Flight C
    The OC v El Dorado. I have already mentioned several teams that are a better match for Eldorado. I just hope nobody gets hurt. OC... be nice.

    Lifetime v LB Houston - The only drama here is whether Lifetime will drop a line. My wager is no.

    Oakridge Boys v Greenhill - This is the same as Lifetime v LB Houston, the only question is whether Oakridge will drop a line.

    Brookhaven v HP/Entrekin - How can HP/Collin County have three teams and not a really good singles player among them? Brookhaven rolls.

    I am amazed at a flight with so many really good teams and none of them play each other. There will be some good matches down the stretch.

  126. oc bl did you get our court for wed. evening? I called them and asked and they said no court was reserved for 6 or thereabouts, so I got one for 6:15. Reconfirm that we're playing.

  127. Oh by the way, who is this Lifetime crybaby?

  128. 6:15pm is cool
    I thought they would be closed today.

  129. I agree. We lost the match to Oakridge, You either win, or you didnt win.

    They played better, and they deserved the win. That type of talk is always said to be handled and prove it on the court. We did not handle our biz on the court.

    If we want to win, we have to play better, practice more, and prove it. Not just talk it.

    Hopefully, come playoffs we get another chance. I look forward to it.

    Until then, the bragging rights is theirs. Anything else is just being a sore loser.

  130. All this BS is not going to matter...Garland Tennis Center..or The Jack Coleman Tennis Center 3.5 team is going to win sectionals..It is all about training and practicing that makes a team better..not sandbagging or is about depth..the DTA has got the best control and the bottom line is the guys that bitch are sore losers and want to ruin and make excuses for their lack of dedication! Nationals here we come!

  131. Future Lifetime SlayerMay 27, 2008 at 8:10 AM

    Lifetime goes down this week!!! They are a OVER RATED.

    Do they even have anyone that can play singles? and win? Seriously!!! 6-0 6-0! You think they could put out a better singles player than that. I sure hope that was not the best they got.

    All of our matches have been close against the top teams. Even Oak Creek was closer than the score appeared.

    This week, LB Houston gets back on the map! Lifetime loses 4-1 this week and goes back and sulks and cries for the rest of the season!!!

  132. I will be cheering for Dallas but I don't see a 3.5 going to Nats from here, Houston, NETX or FTW have some good teams. Can any Dallas 3.5 stack up well with the FTW team with Flores and Aranda, I believe they also have a strong line 1 doubles team as well as many other solid players. Will Flores play with OC if they happen to make it to sectionals as well or will he stick with the FTW team who is just about guaranteed to make to August.

  133. I don't think a Dallas team will make it to Nationals but I think Lifetime and Garland both match up with Ft Worth. With Ryan Curren, Oakridge has become much more formidable. OC is still undefeated and we will learn alot about them when they play Lifetime (their success may depend on who Flores chooses to play for). With Reitzer playing well, CC is looking really tough too.

  134. Go to 3.5 big matches to get the challenge match results from oc bl against Darth Prather