Sunday, June 7, 2009

4.0 Champion Division - Fall

There was chatter on the blog several months ago about the possibility of having a "best of the best" division to have great competition every week in a season that has very little meeting. I'm opening that conversation back up as it seemed that most folks were for it, but to make it happen there would have to be some conversations with Jane Gilpin and the USTA. I don't know what if any reservations they may have to do a test in 2009.

I'm willing to spearhead that conversation but need to ensure the captains and players truly are wanting to find a way to improve our overall league.

The key questions in my mind for this to happen for 4.0 only:

1) Are the captains/teams willing to give up possible playoff opportunities in the Fall for great competition during the season (only the top 2 of say 8, would be eligible)?

2) Are the captains/teams willing to give up the automatic qualifier for the Fall winner into the Spring playoffs for this to happen (thus everyone starts level in the Spring)?

3) Can we develop a decent mechanism to keep this continuing in the future (i really like the idea of the 2 worst teams in the Fall rolling out to 2 new teams with best records from the next Spring that weren't in).

Let's discuss.

Please captains, give me your direct feedback either here or offline via email (rockettjobe@gmail.com).

124 comments:

  1. Dude - Put it to rest. You aren't going to do shit.

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  2. The DTA did a good job in documenting and expalining how flights are created and which teams make the playoffs. This was done in a letter to captains.

    Similarly the DTA should document the process for (1) seeding teams and (2) placing teams into flights. That's where most of the bitching comes into play _ and where the DTA seems to screw up. For example not seeding Branch's team in level 4.5.

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  3. Rockettman, I dont understand exactly what u are proposing?

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  4. The basic idea was to take the best teams, historically or directly from the Spring Season records and have them all in the same flight for the Fall.

    This will allow for high quality matches every week for every team as opposed to only a few good tight matches.

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  5. I like that idea. Better competition for everyone.

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  6. So basically the Fall is for bragging rights only? There are a few problems with this idea.

    1. The Fall winner should win something. The Fall winner deserves a shot at DCC - if you don't like that then QT minimum.
    2. You will hate this, but the fact is captains use the Fall season to get players computer rated. The serious teams are not interested in messing with the current system.

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  7. Level 4.5 already has this in place process in place for spring, 2009. They have a "major league" with the top 4.5 teams including the best 3 teams from last spring and a "minor league" for the less competitive teams. Seems to be working out OK.

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  8. DTA will not do something for 4.0 unless the other divisions agree to do it as well.

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  9. I'd hardly say that the "minor league" is "for the less competitive teams." So far, there seems to be quite a high number of less competitive teams in the "major league."

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  10. Anon, I think most would agree with Doug's proposal and we hope to find out soon. I am down with it because not everyone is chasing the holy grail of a national trophy and getting computer rated players. I think most people play competitive sports to be pushed to play their best not alter results or drop double bagels on weaker players.

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  11. I'm afraid the "best of the best" proposal smacks a bit much of exclusivity.

    The half-point differentiation in ratings is to help ensure that players of similar abilities are matched up against one another. If there's a problem, perhaps narrowing the rating categories to quarter-point levels would be the solution. I just don't see it happening here or at the national level anytime soon.

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  12. As an alternative to this suggestion, why don't we just have fall matches at all levels as we do now, but with some tweaks to help avoid players and captains from working the system during that season. I still think the incentive for the fall winner to advance to the city in the spring needs to remain in order to make it mean something.

    Results during the regular season wouldn't count toward a player's rating unless they were enough to bump him up.

    For players on teams making the playoffs, regular season results would be dropped from determination of that player's rating, and only post-season results would count (unless regular season results would've been enough to result in a bump-up, in which case regular and post-season results would both be used).

    The three-strikes rule would need to remain during the regular and post-seasons.

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  13. anon,

    why does it have to "mean" something. We are one of the only leagues in the US that has the fall league linked into the Spring league, I am almost certain we are the only one in TX to do this so it isn't like we are reinventing the wheel here. Is it not just enough to want to beat the guy on the other side of the net and play your best.

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  14. Cary,

    I am pretty sure that you and the 6 or 6 captains you may be discussing this with are in the minority. There are over 30 4.0 teams in the city.

    Currently 4.0 breaks up into 4 flights. 8 of the teams want to be termed "elite" and play only those teams in the fall. The fact is teams change and are rarely identical between Spring and Fall. Do you want to use Spring standings to determine these 8 elite teams? What about teams 9 through 11 who probably can compete and even beat teams 5 through 8, but just ended up in a tougher Spring flight. You are basically telling every other team you can not win the Fall because in the end their division didn't count. By the way - based on current standings, your team Cary would not be in this elite flight - is this really ok with you? Are you ok playing a Fall league knowing you will never play any of the top 8 teams?

    Do the top teams really feel it is a waste of their time to play some of these "lower" 4.0 teams some weekends? Most rosters consist of over 12 players, yet you can play just 8. Why are you not using these weeks to get the other non-starters into the lineups. If you feel that is not adequate then play only 4.5 in the Fall and piss off those guys as the top teams have to waste their time playing you.

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  15. anon,

    It isn't about "me" or my team this discussion is about the top teams and creating something different for our fall season as a "City" that might be better than what we currently have. I would think if we truly had to come up with the top 8 teams my group would be involved.

    As far as playing up, my guys do play up but due to the 50% rule half the team must be 4.5 rated so I can't just move the whole team up and say screw 4.0 tennis.

    I don't consider the other teams not worthy in fact it seems defaulting has gotten a lot better this season from the teams with losing records. For me personally I would like to play in a middle tier 4.0 league because that is what my level of play is , if I was playing at a higher level I would want to play against like players.

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  16. 1. It doesn't have to be subjective. It can be the teams that made it into the playoffs the previous season from the Spring. In the Fall they get put in the same division.

    In the following Spring, they get spread back out again.

    2. I am not sure if I can agree that teams change all that much from Spring to Fall. And if they do change, it will right itself when the Next Spring comes around anyway.

    3. Finally, it gives hopefully every team a competitive match every week during the Fall. This goes to the "elite" as well as the "non elite"

    If you were a non elite team, it might be nice to have a season where EVERY SINGLE MATCH every week is competitive... I would think it would bring out the best tennis player in all of us.

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  17. i'd like to see the dta start by putting in writing how they seed teams and how they put specific teams into flights

    Seeded teams should be annouced Unseeded teams distributed by randon draw.

    if the dta doesnt have something to hide, why all the secrecy?

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  18. I like the Fall season because it seems you are playing for something. The Fall winner going straight into the DCC makes it worth winning. If there was not something on the table, then I think people lose interest.

    The current system is not broke and frankly is the best in the state. I love the way it is set up now with Fall winner getting such a valuable pass for Spring. Some people say the Fall winner gets too much - but that is the point. Play your ass off in the Fall because winning it IS a big deal come spring.

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  19. Cary your team is 4th in Flight B. How could you possibly think your team is a top 8 team.

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  20. I don't think this was about Cary. Your are correct in that it is not broke and actually pretty good, but I think it could be even better.

    You could still have the playoffs for the DCC champ. Just because you don't play in the elite flight doesn't mean that you can't win the DCC playoffs at the end still.

    I agree playing for something in the end makes it better. It is just how they flight it.

    As far as who they think are the top 2 teams in each flight, they always seem to play each other in the last game of the year.

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  21. dont agree with anon 9:59 am. the fall winner should be given a spot in the QT not the DCC. that would be a big enough prize for winning the fall.

    currently fall winners do not play any matches that count until the DCC. thats just ripe for abuse and managing NTRPs

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  22. How about a blog poll?

    Fall winner advances to QT or Fall winner advances to DCC.

    Why doesnt the DTA give us a vote on this one?

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  23. How about a Hybrid. They are guaranteed the QT no matter what and DCC as long as they finish in top 2 of their flight.

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  24. I cant remember the last time the Fall winner wasn't good enough to make the Spring QT - so giving them auto in QT really is like winning nothing at all.

    I am curious how many players on the Fall winning team thing their team's award was too much?

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  25. Some good points were made about automatic qualification for the city championships for the fall winners leading to potential ratings abuse in the spring.

    I see a couple ways to combat it:

    - Automatic qualification for the spring city championships would still hold. However, if only the fall playoff results counted for players on teams making those playoffs (unless their fall regular season results would result in them being bumped up, in which case both regular and post-season results would be used), there'd be less potential for fall ratings abuse. Every line during playoffs would be of higher incentive to win. The potential managing of spring ratings would remain for the winning fall team unless, again, only spring playoff results were counted for players on playoff teams as being proposed here for the fall.

    - Just having fall city championships without any reward other than bragging rights, and not counting regular or post-season fall results for ratings purposes at all unless they resulted in a bump-up. This would further help against managing ratings during that season.

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  26. 3) Can we develop a decent mechanism to keep this continuing in the future (i really like the idea of the 2 worst teams in the Fall rolling out to 2 new teams with best records from the next Spring that weren't in).

    So if we started this 2 falls ago, and the spring season ended today, pls take us thru the probable progression of teams that are included in this.

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  27. I agree your wording on #3 is confusing and I have no idea what you are proposing here.

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  28. No way, no how, ever, ever, ever, ever is Dallas going to run their USTA leagues fundamentally different than the state or national USTA leagues. If you want more divisions, say a .25 rather than .50 range, there will have to be a change at the national level.

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  29. SPJim,
    You are right as it relates to SPRING leagues. No way Dallas can be different from the Section and National competition. But the fall is different. There is no Sectional or National competition for fall leagues. So I think the DTA can do whatever it wants.

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  30. why dont the guys proposing a change layout specifically how this new structure would work. youll neeed to do that before you approach the dta anyway.

    i get the basic idea - we have a 4.0 competition containing only 'elite' teams and another 4.0 flight containing the more social teams.

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  31. A better idea would be to organize something on our own for the fall without the DTA. Get 4.0 captains from the top 8 teams (we know who they are) and organize a league, set up a schedule, play matches etc. Then we'd have great matches and would not have to enter our scores into TennisLink. (So we all could play our best.) We could set up a new website to show scores and standings _ or post here.

    The fall league is strictly local anyway with no Sectional or National competition.

    The DTA does very little with our league teams. Players sign up on their own, captains find courts, enter scores, the national USTA office provides rules, etc. Let's just use their NTRP ratings and organize our own competition _ on an invitation basis. It would not be hard to do. (A lot easier than maintaining this blogsite.)

    In the spring we all go back and play USTA leagues.

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  32. If the top eight teams end up not playing, one of the consequences would be that one of the lower-rated teams would end up getting the automatic bid to the city tournament in the spring . . .

    Are you also saying that you don't play your best when your results have to be entered into TennisLink?

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  33. Jim, that's just the point about the current system not likely changing to a .25 point level basis anytime soon, if ever. Until that time, teams will just have to accept that they're going to have to face some teams that are competitive and other teams that aren't competitive.

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  34. The DTA does almost nothing for us except publish a schedule. Let's just organize our own 4.0 league for the fall. Invite the top captains and they will get the top players _ and we'll have great, competitive matches every time!

    Currently when a top team plays a weak team, neither team has much fun.

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  35. Anon 6:06 am,

    Who cares if a weak team wins the fall DTA league? Let them go to the DCC in the spring and get killed. We want tough, competitve matches in the fall. Top teams do not enjoy playing not competitive players. (Just a waste of everyone's time.)If we get the top teams together in an 8-team league we'll all have more fun.

    Hello . . . currently not everyone plays all out in the fall _ when there is nothing to win. I certainly dont. It would be a good thing to play our fall matches and not have to enter scores into TennisLink for NTRP purposes.

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  36. You guys are morons. You have NO IDEA what the DTA does and does not do. They only publish a schedule, get real. We have the BEST summer league program in Texas, with the most participation and best playoff structure and typically the BEST teams. Don't give me this bullshit. You babies need to shut up and play.

    There is NO WAY the top captains want to have competitive matches each week. They have guys to get qualified, friends to get some playing time, ringers to pick up losses against teams they know they'll win 3 lines against, etc...this is all hot air.

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  37. Sorry but you guys sound like a bunch of assholes.

    Name the top 8 teams since "we know who they are". I am betting there will be a large debate once you hit teams 6 through 8. If HP SWAT is listed then your list is garbage. The list should consist of the top 2 teams from each flight from the spring - period. It should not be a judgment call - it should be straight forward.

    You elitist will need to do this on your own in the Fall as there is no way you will get a majority of captains to agree to this.

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  38. If you only want to play teams you consider good you should just set up scrimmages with that team.

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  39. Guys,
    Don't let the ignorant jerks keep you for organizing something that would be great fun.

    If you get 6 captains running strong teams you can have a hell of a great time. Play a double round robin = 10 game schedule. Get 2 or 3 captains to organize it and invite whoever you want. Then you'll have a good match every time and wont have to play horrible, uncompetitive players. If that's elitist so what? You dont need every swing dick on this blog to agree. Just a half dozen captains with good teams.

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  40. I think that might be fun actually to do this on our own. I would look forward to a competitive league that put competition and social interation before ratings, stacking, 3rd set tiebreaks, start time regulations, self rates, tanking, no night time tennis, no weekday matches, etc.

    What would it be called?

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  41. If you want to get this going, contact these captains:
    T-Bar-M / Martin
    High Point / Somabut
    High Point / Bazan
    Garland / Sisk
    Stonebridge / Muetzel
    Brookhaven / Pearlman
    Brookhaven / Bartlett
    LBH / Hicks
    LTF / Hill
    Oak Creek / Smith
    Spring Park / Walters
    Hackberry / Rossouw

    Not all will be interested. But if you can get 6 teams or more you could have the best 4.0 league in the USA. With ANY 6 of the above teams you would have pretty good matches every week.

    What do you have to lose? A free pass to the DCC in the spring. No big deal.

    If we get this organized, the teams which choose NOT to join us will be very jealous in no time.

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  42. I'm sorry - it comes across as a sad elitist power play stunt and an insult to other teams who are playing at the 4.0 level. "We're too good for the rest of you lowly 4.0s, so we're taking our game elsewhere."

    I thought most all the captains were better than that. I hope captains and the players who play for them have a change of heart when they think about it further.

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  43. i definitely think it can be done on the side. One challenge will be for private clubs who may not want to have additional court time gobbled up during the normally busy usta season. But that is a hurdle that just would have to be addressed by each respective group.

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  44. Anon 9:13 am
    SCREW YOU

    It is totally reasonable for the better players on the top teams to want to compete against each other on an organized, weekly basis. If you dont like it _ go to hell.

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  45. Do it between the winter and spring seasons then, but it would still smack a bit of elitism. I would think that people would have less of a problem with teams just setting up random scrimmages for fun and with no records or standings kept, so you might consider pursuing that route.

    e·lit·ism or é·lit·ism (ĭ-lē'tĭz'əm, ā-lē'-)
    n.
    The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.

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  46. Guys,
    LET'S TRY IT FOR ONE SEASON THIS FALL. We can always go back to the DTA leagues next fall if we want. Personally I think it will awesome if we can get 6 or 8 of the top teams playing against each other every week.

    If someone's willing to be on point let's send an email out to the captains posted above and see how many will join us. We really have nothing to lose by trying!

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  47. I moved from Atlanta a few years ago and they have a bunch of outstanding leagues which are not USTA sponsored. Many people in Georgia like those leagues more than USTA league. Even in Dallas we have TCD for women _ which is very popular and not USTA. If you guys try this I'm sure you'll be very successful.

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  48. If this happens, I urge players on teams whose captains agree to this alternate fall league suggestion to consider joining teams whose captains are more worthy of respect and don't participate in it.

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  49. But do the Atlanta leagues only selectively choose which 4.0s they allow to play?

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  50. You don't have to do an elitest league instead of playing the fall. You can do both your own league, and the fall league. You could even let some 4.5 players in. This way people who get bumped up, but still enjoy playing with their 4.0 teammates could play.

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  51. It's pretty funny hearing this. Think about it. If the top teams don't play in the Fall league, they are letting one of the "weaker" teams get a free ride to the DCC in the Spring. Or it would make it easier for one of the stronger teams to win the Fall. Doesn't make sense.

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  52. if a 4.0 elite league is formed id love to play on one of the teams. sounds like a great idea. who cares if a weaker teams gets a free ride to dcc? thats not what this is about. it is about playing tough competitive matches

    currently a top team plays maybe 2 or 3 excellent matchs in a 9 game schedule. id rather play a tough match every week.

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  53. I am one of the 4.0 captains mentioned above. If this gets rolling id certainly like my team to be included in the elite competition. That would be a lot better than playing over 50% of our matches against weak, noncompetitive teams.

    Cary, can you help get us organized?

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  54. Grass isn't always greener on the other side boys.

    You are going to weaken the Dallas tennis league overall by doing this.

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  55. NBA, NFL, MLB those damn elitist!!! The best should play agianst the best. That is why you have minor leagues in all sports.

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  56. If you want competition then play 4.5.

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  57. Hey, I really like the idea of getting 6 of the top level 4.0 teams and forming our own league. We do not need to attract all the top Dallas 4.0 teams _ but if we can get 6 then we'll have a fun time.

    Those that are negative about the idea don't have to join us.

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  58. I say you guys go for it. My team is listed and if the top 4 teams were to not play Fall I would feel pretty damn good about my teams chances to secure the free pass to the DCC.

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  59. You are saying its "elitist", but it is based on facts and numbers, not perception.

    If you qualify for the playoffs, you are in, if you don't, you don't unless there is a non participation team.

    I don't have it memeorized on how many make it to the DCC, but if it is only 6, then the qualifier, and the runner up from QT qualify.

    ** You don't have to weaken the USTA. It is NOT us against them. We need to erase that mentality from our brain right away. Just like Ultimate Tennis and TCD does not weaken USTA.

    Again, people could play both this league and USTA. Have it play on the opposite day.

    We would just need:

    someone to do the website and pay them a nominal fee to set it up (like Marc K and $150 bucks or something).

    Teams have to play on that Sunday or Saturday

    100% fully refundable entry fee $25/person as long as 1 match is not defaulted (that is 1 match, not a line). If 3 lines are dropped, they do not receive a refund of their money. It can be donated or whatever.

    BTW, the picture is a Pulitizer Prize Winner. It is about a boy who will lose the war against cancer, but has won today's battle. You can see how excited he is about the news he received today from the Doctor.

    I hope this helps people to keep the problems that we have here in perspective.

    http://www.jason.sg/rawks/320

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  60. I would change the pay structure of this league.

    1. Pay for your court when you arrive - team captains make sure courts are reserved.
    2. Home team buys balls day of match. Each court buys their balls that day.
    3. Nobody should profit from this side league

    I do not think it is fair when you have 8 guys playing 80% of the matches, yet the guys who rarely play pay the same amount. This side league should be much cheaper than the Fall USTA league.

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  61. Even the 5.0 level teams can hardly be considered major leaguers in the overall scheme of things.

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  62. Major league of each division. some just want exercise. some want to really challenge themselves to be the best they can at this level and compete nationally at this level. Separate the two.

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  63. Will the weaker players on the top teams also have to apply for instatement in the alternate league to those-who-are-in-positions-of-authority-to-decide-who's-worthy? After all, we wouldn't want to have the potential for lopsided matches ...

    What about the top players on the weaker teams? Are they SOL?

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  64. The problem is that there are plenty of players on weaker teams who want more than just exercise and would like to compete for a national title. It's just not the case that only those types of players who want to win are on the top teams.

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  65. Maybe we should have three 4.0 tiers: Bob's team, the next group, and all the the rest.

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  66. This has to be the gayest thread I have seen on this blog - and that's saying something.

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  67. I would so rule the over 200lb Beer Tennis League.

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  68. A beer company sponsoring the USTA league ... now that I can support!

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  69. The problem with our current structure is that weak 4.0 teams are not competitive with the top 4.0 teams. So the top teams play a 9 game schedule but only 2 or 3 matches are really competitive and fun. (The blowouts are not fun for either the strong team/players nor the weak team/players.)

    Putting 6 of the top teams in a separate league is a fantastic idea. It ensures more competitive matches for everyone. It would be easy to administer, cost less and be more fun. I THINK MOST PLAYERS ON TOP TEAMS WILL WANT TO PLAY IN THE NEW LEAGUE BECAUSE THEY WANT GOOD MATCHES EVERY WEEK.

    No one is suggesting we do this in the spring _ only the fall league which is a LOCAL league with no Seectionals or Nationals progression.

    If we organize an "elite" 4.0 fall league I think everyone will really enjoy it. It certainly makes sense to give this idea a try for one fall season. We do NOT need the USTA year around to have fun playing competitive tennis.

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  70. i agree with carys earlier comments. if we do our own thing we can have competive, fun matches without worrying about NTRP ratings, tanking/score management, stacking line-ups, 3rd set tiebreaks, etc. Just players of comparable ability playing fun tennis in a team environment.

    the key here is to get 6 of our top captains on board. then everything else will fall into place.

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  71. PUT VERY SIMPLY....

    4.0 USTA will be on a Saturday this fall, so let's do this side league on Sundays.

    Everyone can still compete in the USTA and do what you want for the Fall Saturday USTA league (tank, win, whatever.) Sunday will be the competitive league with reporting scores on our own, something like TCD but for guys.

    Teams eligible for consideration will be the teams in DCC and also in QT and maybe one or two optional invites. Something like the team must have won 70 or 75% of your total individual matches played.
    This should be about 10-12 teams qualifying. If we get 6 or 8 or 10 of these teams to agree, then that's the league. If it's a small number, play everyone twice.
    It's a win-win.

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  72. There are 40 level 4.0 teams in Dallas. So if maybe six teams formed their own elite league there will still be plenty of competitve team opportunities for all the other players in the fall USTA league.

    The USTA league will still be the largest team activity in the fall _ but the new elite league will provide a unique oppotunity for our best players and teams.

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  73. good comments anon 5:46 pm

    who can help us kick this off?

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  74. If we can get six to eight of the top level 4.0 teams together in a new league _ that would be the best thing since lite beer.

    The pricks that don't like the idea don't need to join us.

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  75. Why don't all the elite teams play at 4.5 where they probably belong anyway. Stop trying to screw with the system!!!

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  76. It's hard to be a 4.0 in the 4.5 fall league. All the 4.5 guys will dump against you. I've played 4.5 in the fall a couple of times. I would have 4.5's dump matches to me at least twice during the season. That will get you bumped from 4.0 to 4.5 really quick.

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  77. We did this in the adult soccer league in Dallas a few years back. Basically we took the elite teams and created a new league in Frisco outside the new soccer stadium. Most teams were in both leagues at the same time. This created some of the greatest competition in soccer that I've seen in a long time. You knew you had better bring your 'A' game or you would get your tail whooped. Even if you did bring your 'A' game you still had the possibility of getting smoked. I didn't care. I knew that my opponent would have to work for it.
    In the end the new soccer league became sanctioned and the two leagues were still seperate. It's a great idea. We played against ex-professionals on every team. If you're not scared of getting tore up but more willing to improve then it becomes productive.
    I think this is the same idea you're proposing.
    Thoughts?

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  78. One of the problems we have now is that 3.5 players play level 4.0. So level 4.0 players playing level 4.5 will only create problems for the legit 4.5 guys.

    Best solution is to get our top 4.0 teams together in a new fall league and we'll see some great competition _ w/o all the USTA BS.

    SOCCER GUY,
    I totally agree with you! Forming an elite 4.0 tennis league would be also provide great competition!

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  79. If the top 4.0 teams do comit to this for the Fall, don't play in the USTA league in the Fall, too.

    The main benefit for the rest of the 30+ teams in the Fall is that they won't have to constantly hear how they aren't worth playing.

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  80. "It's hard to be a 4.0 in the 4.5 fall league. All the 4.5 guys will dump against you. I've played 4.5 in the fall a couple of times. I would have 4.5's dump matches to me at least twice during the season. That will get you bumped from 4.0 to 4.5 really quick."

    I'm sorry. "All the 4.5 guys" won't tank against someone who's rated 4.0. That's one of the most ridiculous statements ever made on this blog, and that's also saying something.

    Are you now rated 4.5? Which players tanked against you? Could it be that you really should be playing 4.5? If you were looking for better competition, I'm sure you'd get it.

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  81. A team of "elite" 4.0's playing in a 4.5 league wouldn't finish above .500. Frankly the over/under on team wins would be two.

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  82. It's a great idea to form an elite 4.0 league for the fall. Obviously we have a little sour grapes from a couple of assholes but that should not stop us.

    Who can help us get organized??? Cary? Sisk? Bartlett? Walters? Someone help us get the ball rolling.

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  83. We should bring in top Fort Worth teams as well. It looks like Fort Worth has the strongest 4.0 team in Texas this year anyway, I'm not sure we have a team that can match up with them.

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  84. The top 4.0 team would finish over .500 in any 4.5 division. The top 4 or 5 teams are really good, but the rest would struggle to make playoffs in the 4.0 division

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  85. ROCKETTMAN,
    Can you help us get started? Maybe an email to top 4.0 captains to see if we have 6+ interested.

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  86. Is this what is known as a pipe dream? You pick up the pipe, take a few hits and have a dream. Apparently, you guys have been passing it around.

    Be realistic, this is not going to happen. You guys are all on board to inisist the DTA do things like you guys want. The DTA certainly has issues but asking for this is a waste of time.

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  87. Come on guys ……

    A lot of work goes into organizing the leagues, working through individual issues, working through team issues, getting courts allocated for playoff tournaments, organizing volunteers to help work the different events ….the list goes on and on.

    The DTA is one of the best organizations in the nation that is contracted by the USTA to run their Adult leagues and Jr leagues & tournaments. The DTA has over 6,000 people participating in their programs.

    Instead of trying to re-invent the wheel ….Why not help and try to make the DTA and the leagues better? There are many ways to get involved.

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  88. Are you talking about Miller's 4.0 team? They can stay in Fort Worth, they are just average and would be more of the same. Dallas killed them last year at sectionals. Best 4.0 team in Texas, you are an idiot.

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  89. "The top 4.0 team would finish over .500 in any 4.5 division. "

    HAHAAHAHA. Good one.

    Where is Nancy to make a 4.5 post? Nancy - start talking about 4.5 again. The anons are back. We can talk again.

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  90. Actually, I think the top 4.0 teams would finish over .500 in the 4.5 league.

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  91. A team picking the best players across teams at 4.0 might finish around .500 at 4.5.

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  92. Which 4.5 teams would the best 4.0 team beat?

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  93. Any team that doesn't make the 4.5 city playoffs would probably lose to the top 4.0 team. There might be 1-3 teams that didn't make playoffs that would beat the top 4.0 team half the time.

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  94. Please think before you post. Take a look at Ken Ratana's 4.5 team. This team would beat 95% of every Dallas 4.0 teams and they haven't won a match yet (they have a good shot at beating all 4.0 teams).

    There are only a couple of weak 4.5 teams. Village, DFW, Bazan, Ratana, Collin County and T-Bar Snow are it - after that no free passes. If we are strictly talking about the winner of DCC 4.0 team, it would lose to the following 4.5 teams in blowouts for sure and would lose to several others in close matches.

    Branch
    Feldman
    Noel
    Stoner
    Harlee
    Nguyen
    Rothwell
    Schnittker
    Boverman
    Borre

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  95. LMAO - I think Bazan may be the only listed "weak" 4.5 team the 4.0 DCC champ could beat (and that is because Bazan's team is a 4.0 team)

    FYI - this isn't an insult to the 4.0 DCC champ. The same could be said for the 3.5 champ competing at 4.0 level. The 3.5 DCC champ would not finish above 500 at 4.0.

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  96. Dunford, Juhn, and Abbruzzese's teams are also quite good.

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  97. What's the 50% rule? Is there such a rule? Does 50% of a team's roster have to be at level, or does 50% of a team's lineup eac week need to be at level?

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  98. anon 8:34 am
    You are an asshole and you have no idea what you are talking about.

    The National USTA provides almost all the rules for league play. The DTA provides flights and a schedule and administer the playoffs. That's about it. (And they screw up flights more often than not.)

    CAPTAINS and PLAYERS sign themselves up, get courts, schedule guys to play, provide balls, play matches, report scores etc.

    We have great leagues BECAUSE WE HAVE GREAT CAPTAINS AND A LOT OF PLAYERS. It will not be difficult to form a Premier 4.0 League of our own _ just for the fall. All we need is for 6 captains to buy in.

    What are you guys afraid of???

    This has the potential to be an awesome league and great fun for all our top 4.0 players.

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  99. That just shows you 4.5 guy's have no idea what you are talking about. I play in both leagues, and most of you 4.5 guys just aren't that good. Don't get me wrong there are alot of great 4.5 players that would crush 4.0 players. In my experience the average 4.5 player wouldn't even make the starting line up for the top 4.0 team.

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  100. I see this happening.

    1. 6 to 8 captains form an exclusive league.
    2. One or more captains start grabbing top players from other teams to play in their league on Sunday since their normal team isnt invited to play that day
    3. Captain starts recruiting player to play for their real USTA team come spring
    4. Strong teams get stronger - weak team get weaker.

    IT'S A BAD IDEA

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  101. Just like USTA, there will be teams scrambling to get players and you will have better teams and worse teams.

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  102. Guys,
    League admin would not be difficult or time-consuming.
    1. We get 6 captains on board
    2. 1 or 2 captains get together and prepare a schedule
    3. Captains fill their rosters, get courts, balls, and play matches just like they already do
    4. Scores are sent in by email and posted on the blogsite
    5. We use existing USTA rules excpet where captains vote to change. (Perhaps we vote to play a full 3 sets.)
    6. Any big issues are resolved by vote of captains. But the whole idea is to play good matches and have fun. I don't expect a ton of issues.

    Dallas is large enough to support 2 leagues. I'm sure the DTA Fall league will continue to do fine.

    Result is great matches among our top 4.0 players and teams.

    LETS DO IT!!!

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  103. anon 3:14

    You are correct. The problem is those 4.5 guys you see typically in practice only. When it comes to a live match they are not playing in the starting lineup.

    The real issue is the best 4.5 guys are playing the singles lines and so the 4.0 team is going to lose both those lines which means they now have to sweep doubles. That just isn't going to happen.

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  104. These comments about the top 4.0 teams beating the middle level 4.5 teams are just comical. The only team who could compete with 4.5 teams would be Somabut. All you have to do is look at the record of 4.0 players playing 4.5 to prove this. If there is a 4.0 player with a winning record at 4.5, this is for three reasons: A) They are not 4.0 players (i.e. Steven and Keith), B) They are always at the bottom of their team's lineup so they are playing against other low 4.5s or high 4.0s, and C) 4.0 players will be on weak 4.5 teams that opponents will give no respect and play their worst players against them to get them match time.
    Bazan's and Stonebridge's 4.5 teams are full of high 4.0s or 4.0 bumpups and they are the two worst teams in their flight based on record. How can you dispute this?

    If you list the top 3 or 4 players on every 4.5 team, I would venture to say there are almost no 4.0 players who could beat any of them. This would mean that, in a match, a 4.5 team would automatically be up 2-0 or 3-0. Without stacking, a 4.0 team has no chance.

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  105. CoreDawg is absolutely right about that.

    The problem is that the DTA has to accept anyone who wants to play. Even 3.0 players can sign up and play for a 4.0 team. Even if 50% of the roster is actually 4.0 players YOU may match up against a 3.0 or very weak 3.5.

    Everyone is very busy and when they block out a little time for tennis over the weekend they expect a good match. Sometimes players have to travel a good distance and then they play a very weak, noncompetitive player. Or perhaps a guy that is tanking to "manage" his rating. That is a waste of everyone's time.

    A premier 4.0 league makes a lot of sense.

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  106. as long as we're only talking about the fall league i agree that an elite 4.0 league would be a big plus.

    with the new league, scores would not be enterred into tennislink and there would be nothing to win or lose. just good competition. no reason for teams to stack their line-up and no need for players to tank or manage their ratings. the best would play the best and we all have a hell of a good time. admin would not be difficult.

    players remiaing with the dta would still have good competition and perhaps an easier time winning a spot in the dcc.

    we have to give this a try.

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  107. CoreDawg/Cary, I appreciate your thoughts and commentary but both you guys are clueless about Dallas 4.0 or 4.5 league tennis.

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  108. anon 6:58 pm
    I would say CoreDawg and Cary know more about 4.0 and 4.5 than most. You want to see clueless - look in the mirror.

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  109. You're right. We are beginners to the Dallas league scene.
    BTW, I think this elite Dallas league is a great idea, but I think it will be very difficult to start. Unless it is done in addition to the existing fall league, it won't happen. As much as people like to say the fall is meaningless, everybody wants that shot at a free spot in the DCC.

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  110. ROCKETTMAN,
    CAN YOU SEND AN EMAIL TO THE CAPTAINS SOMEONE LISTED ABOVE? LETS SEE IF WE GET 6 OR MORE INTERESTED CAPTAINS.

    IF WE GET SIX STRONG CAPTAINS WE'LL GET THE PLAYERS AND THIS WILL ALL COME TOGETHER. WITHOUT THE CAPTAINS WE ARE JUST BLOWING SMOKE.

    HELP US GET TO THE NEXT STEP.

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  111. anon 3:28

    Most 4.5 teams don't have 2 great singles players. They usually have just 1, and yes there are exceptions. Look at all the guys who get bumped up each year, and continue to win at 4.5. Gene Davis, Jason Kern, Jean Nguyen, Hai Nhuyen, Dan Rasor and Dan Keller are examples of this. Some 4.0 teams will have a couple of players of this caliber on the their team. So don't tell me a 4.0 team cannot finish above .500 in a 4.5 league.

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  112. rockettman,
    u r the best!

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  113. Having a bunch of 4.0 players play 4.5 is not the answer to our problems. That would just make for weaker matches at the 4.5 level.

    The idea of a premier 4.0 league is a really good one and I hope we can get it going.

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  114. Guys - Don't waste your time. Spend the time working on your game.

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  115. my game is already plenty good for 4.0. i like the idea of having a good match every week rather than playing mostly weaker players. the new league will be great! whiners can stay on the sideline.

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  116. If you take the very best 4.0 players and formed a team then that team might be able to finish at 500. What I said was no current 4.0 team that I see would win more than 2 matches at 4.5.

    The guys you listed are the exception, not the rule. Gene Davis was always a 4.5 guy - him at 4.0 was a joke. Kern is right there with him. Keller lost several matches in the fall at line 2 singles.

    Use Ken Ratana's team as they fit the rule. He has several players that dominated last year at 4.0. Forrest, Fernando and Ken

    Contreras - 5-0 Line 1 Singles in Fall
    Forrest - 5-1 Line 1 Singles in the Fall
    Ratana - 5-0 Line 1 singles in the Fall

    These guys are getting abused at 4.5. You are taking this too personal. Just go look at Sisk 3.5 team which will probably win DCC and possibly sectionals. Do you really think that team would beat half the 4.0 teams they would play?

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  117. I think Sisk's 3.5 team would go .500 in any 4.0 division.

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  118. INTERESTING QUESTION: HOW MUCH OVERLAP IS THERE BETWEEN NTRP LEVELS.

    I may be wrong but I think . . . our best 3.0 team could beat almost all non-playoff 3.5 teams. Our best 3.5 team (Sisk) could beat almost all nonplayoff 4.0 teams. The best 4.0 team (Somabut) could beat most nonplayoff 4.5 teams.

    Maybe we need a new blog challenge. Somabut's 4.0 team vs a good but nonplayoff 4.5 team. It would be interesting.

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  119. You are correct. The best team from a lower division could beat at least half the teams from the division above, and probably get crushed by the other half.

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  120. Why not just have the four teams making the DCC form the fall elite league and play each other twice? All other teams clearly would provide much too easy competition and would be a complete waste of everyone's time ...

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  121. I can't agree. We saw what happened to the Sisk team that moved from 3.5 to 4.0. Of course, the problem there was they had 4 players that carried that team.

    Defeo
    Flora
    Courtney
    Oh Shit! - Delira

    The rest of the team is getting slaughtered at 4.0 (including Rock Jock)

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  122. We do need a 4.0 Priemier league. All the top players would really benefit from this type of competition.

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  123. Thank you, Anononymous 3:00 PM, for your continued posts. We heard you the first time you said so.

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